Lmao you’re adorable

Cutting pizza would also teach kids a geometrical understanding of how circles work, I don’t see how that translates at all to being innate to reading a clock. I know tons of people who can read a clock who suck at math. It seems like an incredibly weak assertion.

Lol I don’t think that’s true, and I don’t think those words work the way you used them anyway

I genuinely am enjoying your comments, it’s a super interesting topic and you have good points.

Just because I’d always make the same choice under the same conditions, doesn’t mean I didn’t make a choice.

This might be another point of us misunderstanding each other. I would argue that it’s not that you always would make the same choice. I’d say that you couldn’t ever make a different choice. In a vacuum, I think it looks like the same outcome, but I think it’s subtly different if you look at it more generally, like a system of choices/interactions.

I guess that is what I mean with “pure mind”. There is an unease there

I know what you mean, it made me very uncomfortable when I first learned about this point of view. But some eastern cultures/philosophies don’t have the same individualistic/“liberal as in libertarianism” mindset when it comes to personal choices and outcomes, so I imagine that unease is partially due to our cultural upbringing.

What else is free will but a conscious decision based on thinking and inputs, however that works?

I think a lot of what people experience as free will is just rationalization after the fact based on past experiences and internal belief/value systems. Similar to how split-brained people don’t just invent provably false stories explaining why they did something, they believe the false stories that their brain invented after they had already performed the actions.

On a real world, practical level, I think accepting this doesn’t really change interactions on a personal level, but more shifts the macro/societal level of cause and effect. Maybe instead of expecting kids to just choose to apply themselves better at school, we focus more on methods that improve outcomes, as overly basic example.

I’d be curious what you would call “the phenomenon previously known as free will”?

I haven’t given it any thought, and I’m not sure it matters. What would you call “the phenomenon previously known as soul/thetan/djinn”? I don’t believe the phenomenon exists, I don’t think I’d need a name for that. If we’re being super semantic I guess “agency” somewhat works.

And what conclusions would you draw if free will doesn’t exist, what would be the impact on ethics, law and sociology? Does it all topple like a jenga tower?

I don’t think it means we stop penalties for crimes, if that’s what you mean. I think society is a system, and the existence and application of penalties on unwanted/harmful behavior along with rewards for wanted/beneficial behavior shift the balance of actions and behaviors of the system on a whole for the better, as individual systems (not just people, but families, peer groups, etc) work to maximize outcomes for themselves or their value systems.

Does none of it mean anything?

Plenty of philosophies think we don’t have free will, and none of them have advocated for or turned into suicide cults, so don’t let this turn you off from the thought. I think we experience what we experience, and free will doesn’t cheapen that. Enjoying and valuing what we have and what we experience for what it is instead of for what effort you went through to earn it is already a part of many people’s value systems, so I don’t believe it actually takes a large personal shift for most people.

It’s so funny and interesting how completely differently we feel about this haha

But from the inside your mind you would of course say you have free will because that is how you defined it.

No I wouldn’t say that. And that’s how compatibilists have re-defined free will, it’s not what people generally think of when they think of free will. “You don’t have a choice, but you just feel like you have a choice, which is actually free will” is not a statement most people would agree with.

In a universe with only such PC based human minds, you wouldn’t argue that you don’t have free will because we’re just software running silicon chips.

Yes I would. I’m also arguing that now about our human based human minds.

Otherwise you’d have to invent a new word for what you meant with free will, like internally derived mental agency or something.

Or, I could just accept that free will doesn’t exist, it’s a fake feeling. Similar to how love feels like it comes from the heart but it’s all in the brain.

We have consciousness, and are self aware. But the universe is deterministic and there was never any other choice you could have made at any point in your life. A million times over and you would have always done exactly the same things, and had the exact same chemical reactions to the stimuli you experienced. It’s not a contradictory world view, and it doesn’t require any form of free will, let alone redefining it. But people get uncomfortable thinking about it so it often gets rejected out of hand.

The error I believe is that we don’t want to accept that sentience can arise from mechanical universe and it’s a matter of degree and that this can create meaning. People want to set the bar higher because they want the idea of some type of “pure mind”. But since we’re already discussing the meaning of all these things, arguing that what you are reading is just quantum physics is rhetoric.

I don’t follow. It sounds like you agree that the concept of a “pure mind” is ridiculous, so I’m not sure what you mean by your last sentence.

I also don’t think of free will in terms of predictability. I think of it like this: if you could recreate this moment an infinite amount of times, you would always “choose” to do/think/react the exact same way every single time.

Neutral monism just looks like “we have to have souls because the science is uncomfortable to me” but for atheists lol

Being “free” to take in inputs and then output the corresponding outputs like a computer isn’t what anyone I know would call “free will.”

Redefining free will as exactly what a computer running code would do doesn’t make sense to me.

Maybe it’ll work out this time! Lol

So if you’re anti-NATO and critically support Russia, then you’d prefer Biden too?

After a Republican tried to assassinate a political figure, I’m supporting Harris.

Who allied up with the Nazis to invade Poland?

Saying you’re disappointed with what girls do to their bodies is mad weird, though

I think you entirely missed the point haha

I think it’s making a joke that the weird domain name is “the elephant in the room.”

His first election campaign was in 2016, not 2020 haha

NGL I’m struggling to follow that image, do you have a higher res version or an explanation if you don’t mind?

This is such a Lemmy take

What makes it funnier is that he’s one of the main Lemmy devs lol

Don’t hate fascists, hate fascism.

That they think would improve their lives, you mean.